[PedalPowerBikeTaxi]

Let the bs advice fly guys.........all day long if you want!!!

Most mountain bikes that I know of, and use in our service, are designed to take huge jumps and land with a massive force on the frames....let's see 175 lbs. dropping off a 5' ledge.......I'd say that is more force than you were expecting a bike to carry huh? In a touring mode, not a single problem in the world.

Notice how this forum isn't restricted to guys in tights riding a carbon fiber frame? That's why we are called Pedal Power, not Provocative Power!

The loads are distributed over the rear 20" wheels and you barely feel the trailer behind you as you take off....The load is barely pushing on the frames, I'd say maybe another 50 lbs. on the frame when fully loaded on a Pedicab model. Our cargo trailers and kid's trailers trail and track light lightning.

And research comes from people who study other peoples' work for advice....I study other products for their faults and steer away from that mentality of the herd!

Do you think it is safe to put a kid in a flimsy "ultra lightweight" trailer??? Then attach the trailer to one side of the thinnest pat of a bike's frame??? Wow, I see that the pack is the only place you want to be riding in, but watch out for the wolves trying to bring a mass produced, hollow tubed trailer into the safety first crew's view, cause I know they are death traps for children.

If they are so F**Kin concerned with weight, then why try to make a side attachment??? Does anyone here study a science related to mass and motion? Don't think my kids are going into one of those Burly's

[PedalPowerBikeTaxi]

Originally Posted by Industry_Hack

I don't see anything on your site about your trailer, and certainly nothing about testing a load of 250 pounds on a seatpost. That's a lot of stress in an area that most frames are not designed for.

That's too bad....try looking this time.

[PedalPowerBikeTaxi]

Originally Posted by LarryM

PedalPower, you certainly have some nice designs for utility and commercial trailers. But you might want to study the market a little more before spending a bundle developing a trailer for cycle tourists.

Cycle tourists, like back packers, are weight weenies. Some cut the tags out of their underwear to save weight ... and if they bring a paperback book, they tear out the pages as they read them. Most cycle tourists can ride cross country and camp in relative luxury with under 50 lbs of stuff, counting racks and panniers.

Edit - added for reference: My tent sleeps two and weighs in at 4 lbs 8 oz. I would have a hard time justifying a trailer weighing more than a 13 lb BOB or a 14 lb Burley

Who's spending a bundle in R&D??? Not me.......nothing but ingenious designs here integrated into fabrication by a bombproof metallurgic master of a fusion of elements.

Added for reference...if you put your kid in a trailer that restricts the steering and turning radius, then you obviously don't care about navigation or road safety, and if it is so lightweight, how is it going to survive an impact with a car, and what happens to your kid in a nylon seat with a hollow tubed frame with plastic elbows and riveted joints, when you get slammed, hypothetically speaking. Hope you have a good insurance carrier.

Guess you guys don't want to try to get past your plateaus in strength training and are looking for a real "weight weenie" to play around with! LOL

[PedalPowerBikeTaxi]

I think you guys should realize that Dean, the guy who started this site, had invited me here because he felt we were a company good enough to be represented here, and I think that you guys need to realize that there are a ton of different bikes out there, and get out of your cynical mode of conflict resolution tactics of discussion.

Let's just say we are prepared to prove our theories in design, if you would like to challenge us to live demonstration or safety industry testing, if you would like to pay for it, and we would hope that there is a little less of a downplaying of our work, until that day you read all about it in your favorite magazine......but until then, having a turned up nose with a keyboard doesn't impress me.

Eat your wheaties.

[Industry_Hack]

Dirt jumping does not impart the same forces on the frame that 250 pounds of trailer can exert on a seat tube. More importantly, if you want to present your business in a positive way, it doesn't help to use profanity and be argumentative. Members have asked valid questions, and made comments in a polite manner. Your response has been less than professional.

[Industry_Hack]

Originally Posted by PedalPowerBikeTaxi

[snip]Let's just say we are prepared to prove our theories in design, if you would like to challenge us to live demonstration or safety industry testing, if you would like to pay for it,[snip]

That's generally the job of the manufacturer, to prove their product won't be a liability.

[photosbymark]

Insurance companies don't determine whether or not something is safe. They cover something because they think they can make money. Often they just charge enough to make sure that they make money after the claims.

[Industry_Hack]

Originally Posted by photosbymark

Insurance companies don't determine whether or not something is safe. They cover something because they think they can make money. Often they just charge enough to make sure that they make money after the claims.

Actuaries attempt to determine the likelihood of a loss and their financial impact. When an agent writes a policy, that policy goes to the underwriter, who will verify the accuracy of the policy terms and insured's information, (they can cancel your policy or deny a claim if you lie or omit important info) and then make sure that they premium is indeed correct based on the risk factors as presented, using the data provided by the actuary.

Auto insurance companies know that on average, a driver will be involved in an accident once every X amount of years. They also have data on the average cost of repairs for your vehicle. Other factors they consider are driver age/experience, credit, and driving record. They take all that info, and then the state Department of Insurance approves their rating guidelines. So Mark is basically correct - they have to show that insuring X driver will likely cost them X amount if he/she makes a claim, and therefore, they should be allowed their small percentage over that. Premiums are invested, which is where they make their operating cash.

Yes, my post is long-winded, and it's about auto policies, not product liability. But the underlying process is the same. At the end of the day, the insurance company has attempted to determine the likelihood of someone being involved in some sort of loss while using the bike or trailer. They don't care one bit about your CAD skills, welding process, or metallurgical knowledge, and they probably haven't asked you for any sort of testing due to the relatively low limits of your policy. They might give you $100k or more of liability coverage without that. But ask for $5 million, and then see what documentation they need.

[Green]

...and it's about auto policies, not product liability. But the underlying process is the same. At the end of the day, the insurance company has attempted to determine the likelihood of someone being involved in some sort of loss while using the bike or trailer. They don't care one bit about your CAD skills, welding process, or metallurgical knowledge, and they probably haven't asked you for any sort of testing due to the relatively low limits of your policy. They might give you $100k or more of liability coverage without that. But ask for $5 million, and then see what documentation they need.

Industry Hack is spot on according to what I have studied.
Actuarial science is the backbone of the insurance industry and is the scientific underpinning of the insurance industry and has been for more than 200 years.

What is more the insurance industry is betting that risks WILL fail over time and they know exactly how to make money from those failures regardless of how big the group of users is, if the group is too small and the risk too high the obvious method for making money is not to underwrite.

As far as I see the “products” on the site listed in this thread have no safety certification to underpin their design safety at all as there is no UL listing, ASTM cert or other external verification listed at all. What is more disturbing is there is also no listing of internal design reliability testing much less a design certification from a Professional Engineer. I must point out that the much maligned BOB trailers have those certs and exceed the ASTM F833-05a and SOR/85-379 standards, we know this because they were TESTED!
The manufacturer posting on this thread throws around many snappy catch phrases and ideas but has documented in this thread an unwillingness to even pay for testing let alone actually demonstrating even the most basic understanding of how engineering without research and design testing is not engineering at all.

The fact is that the products there are NOT tested because a program to load and fatigue test them is non-existent. Bottom line, if you don't measure the strengths and failings, gather the data and analyze the product, you know nothing about it at all.

My advise would be to walk wide and clear of those with such simple minded, arrogant bravado, a purchase from such enterprises is a coin toss at best.

[Industry_Hack]

Green, you could have just said I was correct. But I think you for clarifying why I am correct.