[DrkAngel]

Originally Posted by DrkAngel

You seem to miss the point!
I never even hinted that faster speed is "the entire key to safety."

But! Faster speed will greatly reduce:
The number of passing vehicles. (Reduced by 75%) *
The passing speed of vehicles. (Reduced by 50%) *
The quantity of oncoming traffic. (Reduced by 50%) *
The severity, of impact, if stuck, or being "swiped", from behind. (Reduced by 50%+++) **

* Based on, per mile. Biker speed of 10 mph vs. 20 mph.
** Some estimate that a 20 mph impact might be 4 times as severe as a 10 mph.!

Any time, or any location ... that safety increase, is a constant!


Once again:
30 mph traffic situation.
Riding same direction as traffic.
10 mph vs 20 mph.

Per mile, riding at any time, or in any location, (even past bars at midnight), at 20 mph, you will encounter many fewer passing vehicles, most notably the drunks. 25% traveling in the same direction and only 50% in the opposing direction, compared to the 10 mph biker.

Also ... No, I am not recommending spending less time biking, at a higher speed. Traveling twice the distance, you will, still, encounter less passing traffic. Half the number as the 10 mph biker!

EZip Engineering 101

All these figures are accurate and can be applied to any circumstance because, it is only a direct comparison of the same biker at different speeds, in the same, identical, situation, the only variable being speed!

EZip Engineering 101

[photosbymark]

If impact is a fall of 3 to 4 feet at 30 mph. The initial vehicle impact may or may not be anywhere near as bad. If you want, think of it this way. This would be much like sitting in the window of a car that gets up to 30 mph, then falling or jumping off. Even that would be better because its expected and you would have some level of control.

Assuming a paved road, you might be surprised just how much damage a short fall can do. A friend used to run skating rings. The fall there was only a couple of inches from ground, but broken arms and wrist were just a part of the business. Didn't seem to make much difference whether it was the hardwood or concrete, though I don't disagree that there might have been some. The common factor was the uncontrolled fall.

Yes you MIGHT slide to disperse some energy over a longer period of time, but hit wrong or something and you might not. Yes you might be able to fall and become unhurt when you expect it, but lots of broken arms and wrists are sustained when people instintively try to break a fall. Stunt men don't usually get hurt on falls they know are coming. It is the unexpected that wakes them up.

[DrkAngel]

Absolutely the best solution to a rear impact scenario requires good speed capability, constant awareness, and one piece of specialty equipment.

First you want to be traveling, as closely as possible, to the speed of the approaching vehicle.

Second you must have an awareness as to the velocity, angle, mass and surface composition of the vehicle. Sets of 4 mirrors, or more, recommended, if possible, arrange into a stereoscopic, full 3D configuration.

Thirdly, and most importantly, the one piece of specialty equipment! "Downunder Cyclists", (located, possibly, in Australia?), has begun marketing their "Octopi" line of cyclewear.

Just make sure that you are struck squarely from behind. If you are about to be hit, quickly swerve and position yourself directly towards the center of the vehicle, the car should knock the bicycle from under you and you should roll gracefully onto the hood and, or, windshield, where the Octopi suction cups should keep you safely secured. (Tip: As soon as you get stuck to the vehicle, rip off one, or both, windshield wipers! Some drivers will use them to try to knock you off. You can also beat them on the roof to get the drivers attention, in case he is sleeping, or just doesn't notice you.) Hopefully the car will come to a gentle stop and you can then safely get off. Much safer than rolling down the road at 30 mph or bouncing over the roof and landing, "who knows where"! (Tip: Please do not anger, or insult, the driver! You will probably need their help getting unstuck from the car!)

Warning! Speed is important! 20 mph bike speed is optimal to be hit by a 30 mph car.
Slower can result in fairly severe injuries.
Faster and you might not be bounced onto the top of the car, you might have to jump backwards, timing is critical! Warning! Be careful, some a__hole drivers will approach like they are going to hit you, then ... slow down, just before impact. If not aware you might jump,and miss, ... then where would you be? ... Embarrassed! ... ???

Large trucks can be very tricky. Most don't have a nice hood to get stuck to.
1. Ideally, you must be going 10 mph slower than the truck.
2. Timing is critical, you must jump straight up just as you are being run over.
3. You must hit the windshield squarely, with enough body, to stick. Grills-radiators don't work well with suction cups!
4. Most important, rip off them wipers! Big trucks might have super duty wipers capable of scraping you off, like a bug!

This is a skill! Like any skill it requires practice. You should have a friend try to run you down, a few times, just so you can get good at being safer.

Oh, ... Make sure you have a good supply of bikes handy.

EZip Engineering 101

P.S. Be prepared for being hit being hit by the, proverbial, "Redneck Pickup". Keep an Armageddon bag handy, on your bike. Recommend couple bottles of water, sun screen, some granola bars, "Space blanket" ... anything you might need in case they drive around with you stuck to their hood, for a few days.

[photosbymark]

Swerve toward the center. No thanks. Yes you might wind up on the hood, but you are much more likely to remain in motion in a straight line (remember that pesky guy Newton) and that will put you in front of the car for it to run over you. No thanks. If you are traveling toward the center of the lane, that straight line could take you straight into on coming traffic. Same applies regardless of the speed difference. The closure rate will have no effect on this direction. It has to do with the direction the body was moving when the bike was upset. Body will go one way and the bike another unless the body and bike happen to take the same outside force which is highly unlikely.

First of all I am not sure such a suction cup device could ever get past the Consumer Product Safety Commission in the US. Not sure it would help even if it did. No way to know what kind of surface it was going to have to stick to, whether there would be enough give in the metal to prevent any kind of suction from being affective after being deformed, whether its metal at all, and even if it did work as advertised how that would keep your head and spine inline. IF the head is not stopped so it stays pretty much in line with the spinal cord a Basilar skull fracture is often the result and those are very very often fatal. A suction cup is not going to do that. If fact it might increase its likelyhood, but only testing would be something that could answer that.

Yet if you want to wear suction cups, that's your decision and not my place to stop you.

[DrkAngel]

Originally Posted by photosbymark

Swerve toward the center. No thanks. Yes you might wind up on the hood, but you are much more likely to remain in motion in a straight line (remember that pesky guy Newton) and that will put you in front of the car for it to run over you. No thanks. If you are traveling toward the center of the lane, that straight line could take you straight into on coming traffic. Same applies regardless of the speed difference. The closure rate will have no effect on this direction. It has to do with the direction the body was moving when the bike was upset. Body will go one way and the bike another unless the body and bike happen to take the same outside force which is highly unlikely.

First of all I am not sure such a suction cup device could ever get past the Consumer Product Safety Commission in the US. Not sure it would help even if it did. No way to know what kind of surface it was going to have to stick to, whether there would be enough give in the metal to prevent any kind of suction from being affective after being deformed, whether its metal at all, and even if it did work as advertised how that would keep your head and spine inline. IF the head is not stopped so it stays pretty much in line with the spinal cord a Basilar skull fracture is often the result and those are very very often fatal. A suction cup is not going to do that. If fact it might increase its likelyhood, but only testing would be something that could answer that.

Yet if you want to wear suction cups, that's your decision and not my place to stop you.

I think it rude that you would criticize someones product without even seeing it or getting their sales pitch. Check out the new Octopi line by Downunder Cyclists! Then you may feel free to critique it.


I must apologize, I'm afraid I laughed at your reply almost as hard as at the previous post. You can't be serious, or are you??

"4 mirrors, or more, recommended, if possible, arrange into a stereoscopic, full 3D configuration." ???

"Downunder Cyclists" ???

rip off a wiper and try to wake a driver???

calling a driver an A__hole because he slowed down rather than hit you???

" ... wipers capable of scraping you off, like a bug!"


"You should have a friend try to run you down, a few times, just so you can get good at being safer." ???

"Oh, ... Make sure you have a good supply of bikes handy."

Come on ... don't be dense! It's a Joke!

If you can't see that, please, have someone read it with you, and explain.

My 10 year old grandson thought it was hilarious, he got everything but "Downunder Cyclists".

OK! ... I'll give you one, just because a 10 year old couldn't figure it out.
"Downunder Cyclists" - as in cyclists down under ... vehicle.


EZip Engineering 101

[CTD50]

Drkangel, it's funny how you can say that a car's impact with a bike (and NOT the impact with unmoving ground) is the most dangerous thing, and yet use the NASCAR example of "rubbing" (what it's actually called) to prove your point! The two are diametric opposites in risk assessment!

I said it before, and I'll say it again... yor math is correct, it is your premise that is flawed.

[DrkAngel]

Originally Posted by CTD50

Drkangel, it's funny how you can say that a car's impact with a bike (and NOT the impact with unmoving ground) is the most dangerous thing, and yet use the NASCAR example of "rubbing" (what it's actually called) to prove your point! The two are diametric opposites in risk assessment!

I said it before, and I'll say it again... yor math is correct, it is your premise that is flawed.

Only used NASCAR example to show photosbymark how wrong he was when he stated that stock car "rubbing" was a 190 mph impact!

Never to justify or prove anything I said. Did you even read the post?

PBM - "... they are all running about the same speed. The impact is a 190mph impact."

EZip Engineering 101

[CTD50]

Originally Posted by CTD50

I said it before, and I'll say it again... yor math is correct, it is your premise that is flawed.

Originally Posted by DrkAngel

Did you even read the post?

Yup, SHORE DID there, good buddy, big 10-4 on ya there....

Get a clue, pal -- just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't "get it", or worse, that they're stupid.

I read ALL your posts on this thread; I'm not impressed, either with your basic premise or your debating skills.

I'm not dull, stupid, or foolish; neither is PBM. We're just not drinking your kool-aid. You have omitted too many variables in your mathematics, and your idea of bike/car contact being the worst consequence is, to be nice and diplomatic, FLAWED!

[DrkAngel]

Originally Posted by CTD50

Yup, SHORE DID there, good buddy, big 10-4 on ya there....

Get a clue, pal -- just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't "get it", or worse, that they're stupid.

I read ALL your posts on this thread; I'm not impressed, either with your basic premise or your debating skills.

I'm not dull, stupid, or foolish; neither is PBM. We're just not drinking your kool-aid. You have omitted too many variables in your mathematics, and your idea of bike/car contact being the worst consequence is, to be nice and diplomatic, FLAWED!

Now just hold on there! "Good buddy". Looks to me like you're getting all, hot under the collar, for no good reason! You better cool it before your head explodes.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

EZip Engineering 101

[DrkAngel]

Originally Posted by CTD50

I'm not impressed, either with your basic premise or your debating skills.

... to be nice and diplomatic, FLAWED!

Seriously tho, what do you believe my horrific, "flawed" "basic premise" is? I really want to know, you seem to feel it to be some type of sacrilegious heresy! Please tell me what you believe I am saying!

Please be concise and brief, I will respond in like manner, and try to remedy this confusion.

EZip Engineering 101