[Oneway]

Originally Posted by IanHighfield

A damned Englishman won the Olympic Gold Medal in the marathon a few years back at age 37. Think it was 80 or 84 Olympics. Always a pain-in-the-arse English shagger, isn't it?

They're all alike!

[IanHighfield]

Originally Posted by Oneway

I can sense we are reaching agreement!

Great discussion and who can't love the puppy dog/butcher shop metaphor? Now that I can get my hand unclenched from my mouse, I'm defensive of Gate's movie. As for myself, a hotshot recreationalist, that is thrilling and I relate well.

Ian, Your observation brings to mind the closing sprint of so many stage finishes where Mark Cavendish, Cadel Evans or David Miller are cranking huge power and moving around quite a bit. A bent would not be nearly as manueverable. Very different conditions, very different machines.

Yes, exactly. A bent would trade rubber with another and everyone would die or be inconvenienced in a painful way. Or the bent would be unable to make a dodge through the mouse hole and gain an edge, let alone accelerate away after gaining the hole. You MUST stand or unweight the saddle to jump a bike away at top speed. Is this not obvious to any person with eyes? No bent can do that.

This awkwardness is why they were banned in 1934. Too many bad crashes with uprights including several fatalities. The most stunning in 1914 when a member of French* aristocracy spent himself on a recumbent while racing a cloth-faired model against other recumbents and diamond frames.

Recumbent advocates twist this to say bents were banned for being too fast. Not hardly. Not ever.

Ian

* All Frenchmen should presently race cloth-covered recumbents.

[digitalmouse]

Sorry I was not joining the fun over the last week - been busy doing some filming for a COP15 organization hopenhagen.org.

Originally Posted by IanHighfield

...This kind of faired result can be observed at all HPV contests as digitalmouse points out but does not make clear. He would have you believe the fast record bent times were for unfaired machines. What's worse, he never mentions fairings. Very dishonest. But then he is in the business of selling a machine that is slower than the machine I make and sell. This kind of gamesmanship is expected.

The links I listed included faired *and* unfaired results. Granted I did not point out the differences because I was pressed for time and hoped that people took the time to see with their own eyes, *not* out of dishonesty. You look pretty silly for that kind of assumption about a person you do not know. I am currently compiling a list of unfaired times and speeds so that people don't have to hurt their brains by doing any reasonable amount of research.

Oh and there are races with faired DFs too, yet faired recumbents still beat them (and I'll get those times as soon as I can).

Also I am not "in the business" of selling recumbents. I only just recently started a small touring business with recumbent trikes. My goal would be to sell them eventually, but it is not my first goal, and it's not speed related. Try producing some facts before you insert your foot in your mouth.

I'm not in this thread for 'gamemanship'. I'm in it to try and provide facts. I personally don't care about whether recumbents or DFs are the fastest, I just want to see a side-by-side comparison of times and speeds for equal events. The facts will tend to themselves.

If you can provide facts, do so, instead of wasting time tossing random veiled insults.

[IanHighfield]

Calm down, mouse. While you were away we came to some kind of peace. Or we ran out of steam.

I don't think a single person cares much anymore about this issue.

If you want to continue the dead horse flog, you're on your own.

[IanHighfield]

But since I know you will be back, mouse. Here are the best times I could find for UK riders at the classic trial distances. All races were on open road loop courses, including the 24 hour endurance runs. In the case of the 24 hour event, the course was 500 miles. After that riders had to continue on the old course. (retrace the start)

Best 10 miles:
Bradley Wiggins 17:58 2006
Wendy Houvenhagel 19:50 2007

Best 25 miles:
Dave McCann 45:54 2009
Julia Shaw 51:08 2007

Best 30 miles:
Matt Illington 57:31 (31.295 mph) 1998
Jill Reames 1:05:05 (27.657 mph) 1999

Best 50 miles:
Michael Hutchinson 1:35:27 (31.430 mph) 2008 (witnessed this event)
Julia Shaw 1:46:49 2009

Best 100 miles:
Kevin Dawson 3:22:45 (29.593 mph) 2003
Julia Shaw 3:52:12 (25.893 mph) 2009

Best 24 hour distance traveled: (sadists only)

Andy Wilkinson 525.07 miles covered. (21.878 mph)
Christine Roberts 461.45 miles covered (19.227)

These are only the top UK men and women. Australia and Italy and Spain have riders of equal or better quality. I do not know the world records or if anyone actually agrees on what those times are.

All of these times are easily verified by anyone who looks up Timetrialling Forum (Powered by Invision Power Board)

Mouse, make sure you post your sources. I will check, laddy.

I see that this bike forum automatically sends the reader to the site I added. This is a great feature. I have been wanting to include such an auto feed but did not know how to do it. Now you an easily look around on the one site that is British Trialling.

[gugi100]

Hi Ian,

I also have an opinion on the subject.
I am one of the guyes you think use fairings to go over 50 kmh during one hour. GJ 50.4 This movie is of my first attempt of october 2008. You can see the bike very well. I think it qualifies as unfaired by any standard.

In another forum I on the same subject i once posted this:
"I will make the comparison based on my experience.

The Bikes
The Boardman bike was a specially development to the event. The position used was extreme. The design and rider-position and helmet were even windtunnel-tested. The Cda values of this rider setup were very very good! Tijdrijden(sorry dutch, but the wattage table should be clear!) Also a purposely designed aero aid in the shape of a aero helmet was available.

The M5 models (HR an LR) used in the recent attempts are basically roadbikes not specifically designed for record breaking track use. In the rider position these bikes are not extreme. There are faster more aero rider-positions possible. There are no good purposely designed (and certified) aero-helmets for recumbent-headposition. So I did without.

The riders
The performance by Chris Boardman was nothing less to fenomenal. It was the best TT rider of his time, with 28 years at the peak of his career. There was a medical end paramedical team around the rider to prep the engine to the max. Training and progress were all monitored. The track was availible for the exact moment "shape of the day".

I am a (computer)screenworker of 42 year old with a family with two kids. I use a bike for commuting. I don’t have any background in competitive cycling of any kind. I never used a trainer or even a trainingsceme. Also don’t use even a heartrate monitor. In the preparation I just did what felt right.

It is all a matter of perspective. The performance of C.B. was very good. But the position he rode in was very extreme. If a pro cyclist today would decide to use the same position, he would have to train and invest a lot to hold the position let alone produce some power output. CB is quoted to have said that the position was very uncomfortable.

This is right a contrast the M5 HR. I use this bike in exactly (!) the same setup regarding to the body-position in everyday commuting and long trips.

Where to compare to?

If I compare my performance to someone similar on a DF within the current UCI regulations then there is a huge advantage to recumbents. These guys (at least the most recent records) set records within the current UCI regulations. The bike have to comply to the TT regulations (for the hour record “athelete” record the rules are different!) You can read more about it here:
Ken Harris | Velocity Nation - Bike racing culture, news and events
http://www.bicycles.net.au/Road-Cycling-News-and-Articles.62.0.html?&cHash=cf3648c0e0&tx_cmarticle_ pi1%5BsingleID%5D=204

Remember, these guys ride state of the art TT bikes with disc wheels! They also have a background in cycling / cycling training.

30-34 47.7644 Curtis Gunn USA 20/11/04 Carson USA
35-39 48.317X Jayson Austin AUS 26/04/09 Sydney AUS
40-44 45.5871 Ken Harris USA 24/09/08 Trexlertown USA
45-49 49.3610 Kent Bostick USA 25/09/99 Manchester GBR
50-54 44.8900 Maas Van Beek NED 19/10/06 Amsterdam NED
55-59 44.5488 Stephen Lehman USA 22/09/02 Manchester GBR
60-64 43.6850 Kevin Gill GBR 19/08/07 Newport GBR
65-69 42.0450 Derek Hodgins GBR 23/03/99 Manchester GBR
70+ 39.6350 Frans Braat NED 2006 19/10/06 Amsterdam NED
(wattagetraining.com)

The current (and also mine) unfaired recumbent record exceeds all those performances by far!

To more or less reach a conclusion, the current (and last past one) unfaired recumbent record doesnot prove anything wrong to the recumbent bike. Given that a 42 year old commuting guy (with no background in the cycling circus) beats all these TT bike guys proofs as far as I am concerned the opposite!
For the near future I see a steep increase for the 1h unfaired recumbent. There are currently purposely designed bikes being developed. And at least here in the Netherlands there are more than a handful of riders who will go over 50 kmh and beyond."

Since then the unfaired recumbent record has moved on and is over 52 km in one hour
This record is set by Aurélien Bonneteau. He also competes in the French cyclosportive series. There he easily gets anyway from a bunch of strong DF rider who don't want a recumbent to win such a event. If you can read french look here. Or use the translation function of your browser.

Of course cycling has to be about fun. And that what I have on my M5 Carbon Highracer but also on my 20 kg "Holland" 3 speed diamond frame upright with spd pedals.

Greetings Gert-Jan Wijers

[IanHighfield]

Very good post, Gert-Jan Wijers. I can run under 49 minutes (25 miles) on the road in natural conditions and all that entails, like uphills and bad patches, water on the course, leaves, etc. Your time (though splendid) was done in a virtual cycling womb. I've never raced 25 miles, or one hour, on a track. But I suspect I'd go a bit faster as would any decent bloke. Again, you did some good work but racing in a dome on polished boards is not real-world. And your times are not record class by a long shot even so.

I've only done some winter indoor sprint work on boards. Me and some of my group sprinted to 41 mph while doing 200 meter intervals. Better men go a bit faster in sprint work on the boards with diamond frames.



Earlier digitalmouse mentioned the UK Land's End race and how a man set the record with a recumbent. I just checked the Windcheetah webpage. They are the manufacturers of Windcheetah trikes. That's the bike used in the record effort.

What digitalmouse failed to inform the public was that the Windcheetah used for this effort was FULLY FAIRED. It looks like a space ship. They have photos on the website. Previously the rider of this space ship had done the course in 44 hours using a "regular" bike. With the Spaceship Enterprise he took 4 hours off that time. (40) This is a 10% improvement. Exactly what you'd expect when fairing a pedaled vehicle.

Come on, digitalmouse, when you tell of a heroic race won by a bent, at least tell of its fairing. A bloke could come away thinking you were less than sporting about such things.


Again, good effort, Gert-Jan Wijers. At least you brought something interesting to the pissing contest and are a capable athlete. But from what I gather you seem to think a man on a DF in a position of discomfort does not really count against a man riding a chase lounge on wheels who is very comfy? What kind of thinking is this? Athletes seeking the ultimate in any endurance event are going to suffer greatly. That is the price one pays. And it's what separates the good from the great. I'm only interested in great.

[IanHighfield]

Gert-Jan Wijers:

I was just playing with the calculator figuring between mph and kph. (I mainly think in mph - it's all the old men around me) In the interest of full disclosure I have to give you your proper credit. Your time on the boards for one hour was .17 kph under Michael Hutchinson's best 50 mile time. Call it even.

Hutchinson was outside in natural conditions and you were on the track, but still, that's damn good riding and bit faster than I would have guessed. Have you ever run 25 or 50 miles outside or entered a one-hour trial outdoors?

We get plenty of good bent riders here in England but it seems the hills and things keep them away from winning. The times I post are all outdoors on loop courses. That does slow a rider somewhat.

I hope you stick around. You bring it.

[www_recumbents_com]

I love DF racers. They are so sure of themselves and their invincibility.

Ian: Commercial CF recumbents from Italy, Australia and South Africa. Sorry, no such animal. You apparently do not have your facts right. Try Netherlands, Poland, USA, and Taiwan.

You do have some facts right though. 95% of unfaired recumbents are designed for comfort, not speed, and they do that just fine. The other 5% are designed for speed, and they do that well. Just like you don't race a comfort or MTB bike at a TT, you can't expect a comfort recumbent to go fast.

Recumbent racers are a rare breed. There are probably 100 in the entire USA. Compare that to the 100 DF racers gathered in my back yard and it will explain why maybe you have never seen a fast recumbent racer. In the UK the number of fast recumbent racers is much smaller.

If you do not crash in a big pack and land on your head too hard or get run over, causing you to stop racing entirely, you will eventually meet one of the few UK recumbent racers that are fast. Until then you can laugh at the funny bikes.

Here is one example of a local TT where a recumbent racer did well:
http://www.ambikerace.com/2009/Results/TEAM%20APACHE%20results%202009v2.pdf

I have more but it's not going to change your opinion so why bother.

-Warren.

[www_recumbents_com]

BTW, Gert is fast, but not the fastest! Currently the fastest non-faired recumbent in the hour is Aurélien Bonneteau at 32.357MPH on an M5 high racer at the Apeldoorn Recumbent Record Weekend on 10/18/2009.

See: The Recumbent and Human Powered Vehicle Information Center for more fast recumbent records. Remember though, these guys all have day jobs.

-Warren.