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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, here is a topic from that other web site that I visit.

For those out there that feel the need to correct their fellow cyclists/motorists. What is the "proper" etiquette for doing so? I.e. you see a cyclist who has just run a red light what do you do say to them? How to do you approach them? Or you see a cyclist who is hugging the curb encouraging motorists to pass not only them dangerously close but furthering the myth that cyclists do "not" belong on the road.

Or you see someone who is riding a bike that is too large/small for them. Or the seat post/handle stem is too low/high. How do you approach them?
 

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YAY BAIKS!
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I say nothing. Unless they are doing something that directly effects me they are on their own ride and I am on mine. I do not feel it is within my pervue to educate others. I sometimes ride without a helmet. If someone came up to me and "educated" me on my choice I would kindly ask them to go fornicate themselves. LOL!
 

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Two skinny J's
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I wouldn't think the road would be the right place to "educate". I think people that want to know will look for information, ask for help, and look for things like this forum to try and get answers.
 

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I feel the same way that Nigal and Rola do.
 

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D.C. you have two valid points, Running a red light & hugging a curb. IMO, we have all
been guilty of that at sometime in our lives, how was it handled at that time? What do
you do when you see a cage talking on a cell? Do you tell them? Good point how do you
broach the subject with out causing a disturbance? As to bike size, there may be a
reason.
 

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I keep my mouth shut. Work in emergency services long enough and you'll see how fast a situation can spiral out of control. Weapons, EDPs, alcohol, drugs...You name it, it could be in the mix and you can find yourself in quite a predicament rather quickly.

I mind my own business. I wouldn't want someone infringing on my time during my ride and I wouldn't do it to someone else. Hugging the curb? Maybe they're a new rider? Remember when you first got your car license? I'm willing to bet you hugged one side of the lane or the other.

Bike fit? As someone mentioned there may be a reason for it. My wife rides a bike that may be "too small" frame size-wise but this is due to her back and hip problems. My stem is pretty short and at an obtuse angle on my road bike; I have had 3 shoulder surgeries and am going for a fourth and lost partial use of my left arm. Wouldn't it be [email protected] for someone to lecture me on how things "should be" as an act of self-righteousness rather than letting each to their own?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I say nothing. Unless they are doing something that directly effects me they are on their own ride and I am on mine. I do not feel it is within my pervue to educate others. I sometimes ride without a helmet. If someone came up to me and "educated" me on my choice I would kindly ask them to go fornicate themselves. LOL!
I can understand that, but if you stop and think about red light/stop sign runners, ninja's, and salmon's, gutter bunnies, curb huggers. Do engage in behavior that directly effects all us.

As stop and think about it like this. A motorists sees a cyclist brazenly run a red light/stop sign. Sadly they're going to eventually equate all cyclists as being the same type of rider as the cyclists who run red lights/stop signs. Now add in the ninja's. Motorist doesn't see the ninja until the last second and nails him/her. Or we have motorist who encounter the salmon rider, who also ends up getting hit and injured or worse killed. And as we know gutter bunnies/curb huggers just reinforce the myth that bicycles "don't belong on the road."

Isn't it reasonable that the city or county or state is going to pass a law restricting where bicycles can and cannot be used? Also when it comes time to vote on funding for new and/or improved bicycling infrastructure, do you think that they are going to be more or less encouraged to do so based on seeing red light/stop sign runners, ninja's and salmon cyclist?

A short time ago (I can't really remember how long ago it was, but it was a year or less ago) I saw a gentleman who was riding a Giant Hybrid bike in the gutter pan. I approached him and said "As a suggestion you shouldn't ride in the gutter pan as you'll end up getting a lot of flats." That way hopefully I didn't come off sounding all "preachy."

As for the helmet thing, it is a personal matter (at least for adults), and at that other site we've been presented with links to research that indicates that in some cases that a helmet might cause more damage/injury than it prevents. Personally I have to do more research before I can come to that conclusion. But I do know/understand that a helmet is not going to protect one in every crash scenario. Such as it is not unusual for me to ride on roads with some pretty high speed traffic. In those cases I know full well that if I get hit by a car no helmet that I wear is going to provide me with any kind of protection. Nor do I always wear it on short trips such as visiting the leasing office in my apartment complex, or going to the paperbox to get a newspaper.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I wouldn't think the road would be the right place to "educate." I think people that want to know will look for information, ask for help, and look for things like this forum to try and get answers.
Ah, but not everyone knows where to look for information. And in the case of salmon riders they are probably going by what they were told by friends and/or family members. Who learned that it is "safer" to ride against traffic as they can "see" what the car(s) are going to do and can get out of the way easier.

What they fail to understand is that by riding against the flow of traffic that they can't see the traffic signs, as well as when they finally hit one of those cars that their speeds are combined. So let's say we have a street with a posted 40MPH speed limit and the motorists are (surprise, surprise) actually following the speed limit and are dong 40MPH. Now we have a cyclist who is traveling against the flow of traffic traveling at 20MPH.

At the point of contact their comparative speed will be 60MPH. What do you think that the chances of survival for that cyclist is going to be?

Whereas (if I am not mistaken) if we have the same participants at the same speeds. Their "combined" speed is considerably less and thus more survivable.

So by correcting a salmon rider you could be eventually saving their life. Isn't that worth taking a few minutes out of one's ride?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
D.C. you have two valid points, Running a red light & hugging a curb. IMO, we have all been guilty of that at sometime in our lives, how was it handled at that time? What do you do when you see a cage talking on a cell? Do you tell them? Good point how do you broach the subject with out causing a disturbance? As to bike size, there may be a reason.
As I sad in another post, I started the conversation with "May I suggest. . ." At that other site we have a rider who thinks that it's "safer" to hug the curb thinking that it provides him with an out if a car passes too closely. Claiming that in part that he can "step off of his bike onto the curb, and/or pull his bike along with him."

In regards to the driver yakking on their cell phone I'll make the sign of hanging up a phone.

You're right about there might be a reason.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I keep my mouth shut. Work in emergency services long enough and you'll see how fast a situation can spiral out of control. Weapons, EDPs, alcohol, drugs...You name it, it could be in the mix and you can find yourself in quite a predicament rather quickly.
I was a medic in the Army, and I'd heard some interesting stories when going through Ft. Sam.

I mind my own business. I wouldn't want someone infringing on my time during my ride and I wouldn't do it to someone else. Hugging the curb? Maybe they're a new rider? Remember when you first got your car license? I'm willing to bet you hugged one side of the lane or the other.
So if someone sees that you are about to ride around a corner/curve and into a potentially dangerous section of road you don't want them to warn you? Is that what you are really saying? Or if you've just rounded a corner/curve and know that there is a large pot hole in the opposite road that and you see another cyclist in that road you wouldn't warn them about what they are riding into?

If they're a new rider how are they going to learn if other more seasoned riders aren't wiling to take a few minutes our of their day to help them learn how to ride safely and legally?

You'd be wrong, as I do not have a drivers license and never had one.

Bike fit? As someone mentioned there may be a reason for it. My wife rides a bike that may be "too small" frame size-wise but this is due to her back and hip problems. My stem is pretty short and at an obtuse angle on my road bike; I have had 3 shoulder surgeries and am going for a fourth and lost partial use of my left arm. Wouldn't it be [email protected] for someone to lecture me on how things "should be" as an act of self-righteousness rather than letting each to their own?
I can understand that, what I am talking about is person who is riding a bike that is considerably either too large or too small. And the look on their face is that it is obviously an uncomfortable ride.

IN both your and your wife's situation might a recumbent not be more comfortable?
 

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YAY BAIKS!
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I can understand that, but if you stop and think about red light/stop sign runners, ninja's, and salmon's, gutter bunnies, curb huggers. Do engage in behavior that directly effects all us.

As stop and think about it like this. A motorists sees a cyclist brazenly run a red light/stop sign. Sadly they're going to eventually equate all cyclists as being the same type of rider as the cyclists who run red lights/stop signs. Now add in the ninja's. Motorist doesn't see the ninja until the last second and nails him/her. Or we have motorist who encounter the salmon rider, who also ends up getting hit and injured or worse killed. And as we know gutter bunnies/curb huggers just reinforce the myth that bicycles "don't belong on the road."
We are individules. We are not a collective. We are not a whole. Ninjas, salmons, gutter bunnies and curb huggers do not effect me. Even if they come in direct contact with me they don't effect me. Unless, of course, they hit me or cause me to hit them. We have a set of traffic laws we as cyclists are to follow. Everything beyond that is none of my, nor your, bussiness. I am not obligated to anyone to act in a certain way other than following the traffic laws.

Education is something to be sought out...not impossed.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
We are individuates. We are not a collective. We are not a whole. Ninjas, salmons, gutter bunnies and curb huggers do not effect me. Even if they come in direct contact with me they don't effect me. Unless, of course, they hit me or cause me to hit them. We have a set of traffic laws we as cyclists are to follow. Everything beyond that is none of my, nor your, business. I am not obligated to anyone to act in a certain way other than following the traffic laws.

Education is something to be sought out...not imposed.
True up to a point. If we weren't trying for some sort of sense of community then why do we have web sites such as this for cyclists to come together to discuss things related to bicycling?

Also given that as I've said (as well as others at the other web site have noted) motorists DO tend to "group" cyclists together based on the actions of the few. It's only human nature. As in a motorist pulls up to a stop light and sees a cyclist just blow through it. The next time this motorist sees a cyclist approaching a red light said cyclist also runs the red light. So the third time this motorist sees a cyclist approaching a red light they'll be expecting it to run said red light. If they don't they won't remember that person, they'll still remember the one's that ran the red light.

So when it comes time to vote to approve the spending of money for bicycle related infrastructure do you really think that that person is going to be willing to vote to have some of their hard earned money spent to help cyclists? In all honesty I do not think that they would be willing to do so.

If anything I can see them voting to further restrict cyclists access to roads relegating them to the status of "toys" and restricting them to parks, and trails. And it's the ninja's, salmons, and red light/stop sign runners that cause people to revisit the idea of mandatory bicycle licensing/registration.

So, yes, whether or not we think that they do, ninja's, salmons, red light/stop sign runners DO effect all cyclists. Likewise gutter bunnies/curb huggers just reinforce the idea that cyclists don't "belong" on the road. Is that really a message that we want to send to the motoring public?

Think of the lady who was behind me honking her horn at me, trying to intimidate me into moving out of her way, so that she could make a right hand turn on red. If it wasn't for cyclists "getting out of her way" by riding in the gutter pan/hugging the curb she wouldn't have gotten the idea that it was okay to intimidate cyclists into getting off of "her" road and out of her way.

Do we really want/need more motorists on the road who see cyclists as being nothing more than mobile obstacles that are just causing them delays? Not stopping to think or care that all of the single occupant vehicles on the road cause them more delays than any cyclist whether in a group or solo will ever cause them.

Yes, it's easy to say that cyclists are all individuals and the actions of one cyclist doesn't have any affect on any other cyclist. But sadly that isn't true, if it was, than why is that every now and than do people advocate the licensing and registration of bicycles? Why do we have sites like this one? Why do we have groups like The League of American Bicyclists, as well as state and local groups?

It's because there IS a cycling community, and because people (whether they're motorists, pedestrians, or what have you) see cyclists as a group. And if the minority misbehave they'll judge the rest of the cyclists by the actions of that minority.

Is it right that they do so? No, we all know that it isn't, but it is human nature. Just like it is "we" cyclists tend to lump cagers, er motorists together.

Think about it, you're driving down the road minding your own business, when all of a sudden a motorists buzzes you. You're continuing down the road and see another motorist approaching you from behind. Aren't you going to brace and "expect" them to buzz you as well? You might say no, that you judge each motorist on his/her own actions, but the truth is that we human beings do judge entire groups on the actions of of others in that group. Get buzzed by a motorist and you do expect the next motorist to buzz you. Is it right? No, but it is human nature. And sadly the next motorist who commits a minor infraction against us we are likely to overreact to that slight.

That is how we end up with the "them vs. us" mentality that we see on our streets.

So again, yes the actions of the ninjas, salmons, red light/stop sign runners, gutter bunnies and curb huggers does affect all of us.
 

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YAY BAIKS!
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They effect me no more than any other person in the world. It's not like a cycling butterfly effect; in Copenhapen a cyclist hugs a curb and somewhere in Texas a cyclist gets buzzed by a car. LOL! Do you educate drivers at red lights when you're in a car? Why not? How about the person jay walking? Why not? We're all in the same community, right?

But hey this is all theoretical at this point. Let's take it into reality. Go out this evening and educate the masses and start spreading the good word. Tell the ninja to get a bell. Tell the salmon to turn back around and go with the flow. Tell the curb hugger to get out into the street. Tell the person on their big bike their frame is too big. Then report back and let us know the reactions you get.

My guess is that your cycling karma will have you riding a purple Walmart Next MTB in the next life. 8)
 

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Back in the Saddle
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I prefer to mind my own business when riding. I don't want unsolicited advice from someone I don't know, don't know their qualification for giving said advise, level of knowledge, etc.

I learned at my first restaurant job that the customer who just went nuts on me about too much ice in her drink likely had a bunch of other crap happen to her before she got to me. I see no need to find someone's breaking point and be on the wrong end of a gun, knife, car, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
They effect me no more than any other person in the world. It's not like a cycling butterfly effect; in Copenhapen a cyclist hugs a curb and somewhere in Texas a cyclist gets buzzed by a car. LOL! Do you educate drivers at red lights when you're in a car? Why not? How about the person jay walking? Why not? We're all in the same community, right?

But hey this is all theoretical at this point. Let's take it into reality. Go out this evening and educate the masses and start spreading the good word. Tell the ninja to get a bell. Tell the salmon to turn back around and go with the flow. Tell the curb hugger to get out into the street. Tell the person on their big bike their frame is too big. Then report back and let us know the reactions you get.

My guess is that your cycling karma will have you riding a purple Walmart Next MTB in the next life. 8)
I'm not trying to say that there is a "bicycle butterfly effect" or anything like that. What I am saying is that the actions of the scofflaw cyclists DOES effect all of us. As drivers see those cyclists blowing red lights/stop signs and than write to their representatives asking that something be done about them. And than as what has happened down here in Fl you end up with a mandatory bicycle lane law. The next step is that they again contact their representatives and we find ourselves restricted to parks and trails and MUPS. Do you really want to live in a world where the only place/way you can ride your bike is to put it on your car and drive to the park and ride around the park, or to the local track and ride the track? I'm guessing that you missed where I had posted that not only do I do NOT drive a car, but that I do NOT have a drivers license. Sadly on most streets there aren't that many walkers and as such I don't encounter many if any jaywalkers in my normal travels.

I have told ninjas that they need to get lights on their bikes, as well as telling salmon's that they need to get on the correct side of the road, and I have told curb huggers/gutter bunnies that they need to ride further out in the road.

In several of those cases they didn't know any better because NO ONE had ever told them the correct way to ride. They are going by how they've seen family members ride, or what those family member have told them.

Occasionally it gets blown off, but it also gets accepted and causes the cyclist to stop and think about what they are doing. I also carry several copies of the Florida edition of the Street Smarts guide to give to people to help educate them.


Also down here in Florida we had a mandatory bike lane law passed because the small minority of cyclists who cannot ride legally. Also down here in St. Pete shortly after our new mayor was elected he held either a breakfast or luncheon. One person in attendance asked what his plans were for making St. Pete more bicycle friendly.

His response was that he and the police had a bicycle education program in the works. As it turned out this so called bicycle education program consisted of the police staking out an intersection along a road that is popular with one of the local bicycle clubs. And cherry picking those riders that the police thought would/could afford to pay the fine and ticketing only those riders, and letting everyone else go.

Again, this "education program" was put into place because some clubs when they are out on a club ride think that the laws do not apply to them. Therefore there is a direct correlation between the actions of a small minority having a direct effect on the vast majority.

Now fortunately down here in Fl, the same exceptions to the FRAP also apply to the mandatory bike lane usage law. And on almost (if not every) every ride I exercise my judgement when it comes to riding in the bike lane. As there are certain bike lanes that I will not ride in at all, and certain others it is a judgement call from one day to the next.

As an example when I am traveling north going to the pet store to get crickets for my spiders there is a bike lane that I will NEVER, EVER ride in. That is because it goes around a curve and I have seen way too many cars drift over into it when they are going around said curve. The next bike lane usually has some sort of debris in it and I do not like getting flat tyres. Coming home the bike lane runs alongside of on street parking. If there are any cars in the on street parking I wait until I have passed the last parked car before entering the bike lane. Some days that means I don't ride in the bike lane at all, and some days I'm only in it for about a block or so.

But overall the problem is that ninjas, salmons, gutter bunnies, and curb huggers DO affect us all. Maybe not directly, but indirectly by causing motorists and/or pedestrians to contact their representatives about getting something done about those "dangerous" cyclists who only care about themselves. Again pointing to the mandatory bike lane usage law that was signed by former Governor Charlie Crist. An amendment that was slipped in so quickly and quietly that the state bicycle advocacy group had no knowledge or warning.

And are now trying to play "catch up" to have it removed from law.

So in closing again, yes the actions of the few can affect the majority.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I prefer to mind my own business when riding. I don't want unsolicited advice from someone I don't know, don't know their qualification for giving said advise, level of knowledge, etc.

I learned at my first restaurant job that the customer who just went nuts on me about too much ice in her drink likely had a bunch of other crap happen to her before she got to me. I see no need to find someone's breaking point and be on the wrong end of a gun, knife, car, etc.
So are you saying that if you are approaching a blind curve/corner and someone is coming from the opposite direction and they know (because they have just passed it) that there is a big ole pot hole in your path you wouldn't appreciate a heads up about it? Or if there is a car blocking the lane? I have to say that speaking for myself that if I was in that situation that I would appreciate being given a heads up.

I am also sure that most normal people would appreciate being given a heads up about something that will block them.
 

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YAY BAIKS!
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I'm not trying to say that there is a "bicycle butterfly effect" or anything like that. What I am saying is that the actions of the scofflaw cyclists DOES effect all of us. As drivers see those cyclists blowing red lights/stop signs and than write to their representatives asking that something be done about them. And than as what has happened down here in Fl you end up with a mandatory bicycle lane law. The next step is that they again contact their representatives and we find ourselves restricted to parks and trails and MUPS. Do you really want to live in a world where the only place/way you can ride your bike is to put it on your car and drive to the park and ride around the park, or to the local track and ride the track? I'm guessing that you missed where I had posted that not only do I do NOT drive a car, but that I do NOT have a drivers license. Sadly on most streets there aren't that many walkers and as such I don't encounter many if any jaywalkers in my normal travels.

I have told ninjas that they need to get lights on their bikes, as well as telling salmon's that they need to get on the correct side of the road, and I have told curb huggers/gutter bunnies that they need to ride further out in the road.

In several of those cases they didn't know any better because NO ONE had ever told them the correct way to ride. They are going by how they've seen family members ride, or what those family member have told them.

Occasionally it gets blown off, but it also gets accepted and causes the cyclist to stop and think about what they are doing. I also carry several copies of the Florida edition of the Street Smarts guide to give to people to help educate them.


Also down here in Florida we had a mandatory bike lane law passed because the small minority of cyclists who cannot ride legally. Also down here in St. Pete shortly after our new mayor was elected he held either a breakfast or luncheon. One person in attendance asked what his plans were for making St. Pete more bicycle friendly.

His response was that he and the police had a bicycle education program in the works. As it turned out this so called bicycle education program consisted of the police staking out an intersection along a road that is popular with one of the local bicycle clubs. And cherry picking those riders that the police thought would/could afford to pay the fine and ticketing only those riders, and letting everyone else go.

Again, this "education program" was put into place because some clubs when they are out on a club ride think that the laws do not apply to them. Therefore there is a direct correlation between the actions of a small minority having a direct effect on the vast majority.

Now fortunately down here in Fl, the same exceptions to the FRAP also apply to the mandatory bike lane usage law. And on almost (if not every) every ride I exercise my judgement when it comes to riding in the bike lane. As there are certain bike lanes that I will not ride in at all, and certain others it is a judgement call from one day to the next.

As an example when I am traveling north going to the pet store to get crickets for my spiders there is a bike lane that I will NEVER, EVER ride in. That is because it goes around a curve and I have seen way too many cars drift over into it when they are going around said curve. The next bike lane usually has some sort of debris in it and I do not like getting flat tyres. Coming home the bike lane runs alongside of on street parking. If there are any cars in the on street parking I wait until I have passed the last parked car before entering the bike lane. Some days that means I don't ride in the bike lane at all, and some days I'm only in it for about a block or so.

But overall the problem is that ninjas, salmons, gutter bunnies, and curb huggers DO affect us all. Maybe not directly, but indirectly by causing motorists and/or pedestrians to contact their representatives about getting something done about those "dangerous" cyclists who only care about themselves. Again pointing to the mandatory bike lane usage law that was signed by former Governor Charlie Crist. An amendment that was slipped in so quickly and quietly that the state bicycle advocacy group had no knowledge or warning.

And are now trying to play "catch up" to have it removed from law.

So in closing again, yes the actions of the few can affect the majority.
This is something you obviousely feel very strongly about and I think you should act on it. Like I said, get out there and get started. Let us know how it goes.
 

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YAY BAIKS!
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I really wish they had the avatar/smilie on here where the happy face is beating a dead horse with a bat.
I'm a traditionalist myself. No emoticons for me.

 

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Discussion Starter #20
This is something you obviously feel very strongly about and I think you should act on it. Like I said, get out there and get started. Let us know how it goes.
Unfortunately it's not just the red light/stop sign runners, or the ninjas, or the salmons or the gutter bunnies/curb huggers that need convincing. It is people such as yourself who don't see that the actions of a few/minority cyclists as being a "problem" or "affecting" you.

Even though I have given you two examples of how the actions of a small minority of cyclists have had a great impact on all cyclists in an area. If it wasn't for those cyclists who three or more abreast we wouldn't have ended up with a mandatory bike lane law down here. Likewise if it wasn't for local clubs that thought that stop signs/lights didn't apply to them than the newly elected Mayor wouldn't have engaged in a "bicycle education program" that was really an excuse to cherry pick which cyclists to ticket for running a stop sign and letting the rest of the pack go without so much as a warning.

Hopefully, those that were ticketed (not that they were right for running the stop sign) were able to use that as part of their defense.

If cycling is to be taken seriously and accepted as a legitimate form of transportation we have to obey all of the laws of the road. Otherwise as I have already said we will find that we are relegated to parks, and trails. And banned from all roads. Is that what you really want?

Also to those of you out there who think that it's better not to say anything to another cyclist, stop and consider this. You're riding down the road you see someone who is doing something that is going to injure or worse kill them. Don't you think that as a human being that you have an obligation to warn someone that if they keep going the way that they are that they're going either get injured or killed?

Several months ago, as I was riding home. I encountered not only a ninja cyclist, but a ninja salmon cyclist. I politely told him that he needed lights and that he was on the wrong side of the road. His "excuse" for the first was that his landlord had for whatever reason had "taken" them.

And if I remember correctly, his "logic" for riding against traffic was the "standard" b.s. of "I can see traffic and move out of their way easier by riding against traffic." A few minutes later after I'd left him a car passed me going in the opposite direction and in the lane that the ninja salmon cyclist was riding. And in all honesty I expected to hear the sound of brakes squealing as the driver attempted to avoid hitting said cyclist.

Another question for all of you who think that it's better "not to say anything for 'fear' of 'interrupting' another cyclists ride," how would you feel if the cyclist that you saw riding in both an unsafe and illegal manner was killed and if maybe if you had said something to them, that they would still be alive?

To me the possibility of helping to either keep a fellow cyclist alive/unharmed or to have "draconian laws" passed is worth the possible "negative" reactions of some cyclists.

I know that if I was headed towards a blind curve and another cyclist was approaching from the opposite direction and saw me that I would appreciate a heads up about a pot hole, or car, or tree/branch blocking the road ahead.
 
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