Indoor Training

Discussion in 'Training / Health' started by Smiley, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. Smiley

    Smiley New Member

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    Been doing this for about a month now. Have a great coach, kicks my assetts EVERY time. I believe him when he says it never gets any easier. We have been doing Graham Street's workouts on Sundays, anyone ever do them? He has a great program.

    My question is, how can I get my hamstrings from stop being sooooo tired? Had an intense workout Sunday, and my hamstrings are tired sore. They are uncomfortable to sit on. I guess I need to not work them as hard as my quads by changing up my pedal strokes? Any advice? I do cool down and stretch after every workout.

    We go MWand Sundays, for an hour and a half to 2 hours.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
  2. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    You didn't give your age but if a person is truly sore to the point of having problems sitting, I'd say you are doing too much too soon. This is especially the case if you are over 35.

    Cramming intense training into a small window of time is only possible for the young who have a solid background of 12 month training. To lay off for periods of time and then try to "get back" into shape or special condition by short bursts of intense work is a mistake. There is no free lunch. Get a base if you don't have one and then ease into hard work.

    Don't try to keep up with video workouts, coaches, or something that a great rider is said to do. If your body is barking it's because it's being overworked. No good coach would push you to pain that does not recede in a day. A certain amount of stiffness is normal and to be expected. To not be able to sit because of bad hamstrings is a warning. You bugger one those and it's a long time coming back.

    Temper enthusiasm and do much shorter hard pieces. I ride year round and never, ever go over 50 miles in a day. I do not want to be out there for more than 2 hours at a time. My training speed is about 25mph but it took me years to get there. If you don't ride year round take it slowly up to max when trying to cram. (I hate the concept, base work is everything)
     

  3. whyeyebike

    whyeyebike New Member

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    I'm a member of Cyclo-Club which is Graeme Street's project. I have done only a few of his workouts so far because I became a member while I was in the middle of another training routine. I will say though, he has some excellent core, strength and strectching videos as well. You might find that the stretching workouts could relieve some of your pain. He has an "in 5 series" which is awesome. I use the "warm in 5" before every bike ride and the "cool in 5" after. They have made a huge difference in how much my legs hurt before and after rides. Plus I have increased my flexibility a good deal.
     
  4. Smiley

    Smiley New Member

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    I took off about 2 months, but generally cycle year round. It is just hard intense workouts. So I do have somewhat of a base, I hope!

    I use Graeme's shoe scrapers technique a lot,which uses all hamstrings, so maybe let up on that a bit to relieve my tender hamstrings. We do another workout tonight, so hopefully will help my tight muscles! Tomorrow is massage, which hurts like a sonofabiscuit, so that tells me lactic acid. Maybe I need to cool down longer?

    The stretches do help a lot that Graeme uses, I agree with the flexibility whyeyebike!
     
  5. mikebike

    mikebike Florida Cyclist

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    how long are his workout sessions, Smiley?? I think you should be dead during them and shortly after but not overly sore (providing you have a decent base)

    When I have to ride the trainer... I do about an hour. During that time I do about 5 minutes easy spinning to warm up and the same on the 5 minute cool down.

    During the middle I do some intervals usually fairly short ones (minute on & 2 off) then some tempo (about 5-7 minute bursts or about 80% effort)

    I do it to music (head-phones) and in the garage.

    enjoy the training... I am hoping it gets warmer here in FL so I can get back off the dang trainer (we have a :love:/:hate: relationship :rolleyes:
     
  6. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    Smiley, stop whatever it is that's hurting you. If it's "shoe scraper" stuff, knock it off. You do not have to target any specific part of your leg. The very fact you are telling us you have pain in the hamstrings should be enough for you to stop. The normal course of pedaling conditions every muscle and cord exactly as it should be conditioned for what you are asking of it; to wit, riding a bike. Don't fall in love with commercial videos or designer trainers who only care about your money. Sorry, that's why they teach or sell DVDs.

    Listen to your own body. Ride your bike as much as you can and intersperse harder pieces. This is natural, classic, interval training. Do hill repeats if you want to build strength but start small and easy. Do fast sprinting but start easy. NOBODY should hurt themselves in training. You hurt yourself in the race. Don't get this backwards. The key to good training is not to get injured and miss training or enthusiasm down the road. Regular bites of firm riding mixed with hard pieces will get 99% of your potential to the fore without risking injury. Unless you plan for the TDF there is no reason to go after that last 1%.

    Always warm up a bit and wind down a little. I do no stretching, ever. I actually think this can be more damaging than beneficial. I'm not alone in this thinking but nobody ever sold a book on how not to stretch.

    What I propose is the advice given me by some world class British time triallers. These men have coached me since I was 13. I just turned 21 and have never been injured a day in my life. I do not get sore for long periods. If something does not feel right, I do not do it again. Very simple. I ride longish weekly mileage at 85% effort with a mix of pickups lasting several minutes. I do hills. I do not waste time stretching. I drink beer. And I can maintain 31.5 mph for 10 miles fairly easily. As I get more physically mature I hope to go over 33 mph for 25 miles. A person can't get there with sore anything.

    Lose the videos and train naturally.
     
  7. TxCyclist

    TxCyclist Administrator Staff Member Admin Staff

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    How long are your stretching sessions and what stretches do you do?
     
  8. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    I Googled Graeme Street. He's not a cyclist. He's not an athlete. Doesn't circulate among top riders. He's a business man on the order of Doctor Phil or Oprah Winfrey out to sell products.

    Follow him if it pleases you, but from what I read, and what I see on this forum, he doesn't know how to train cyclists but he does know how to mine them.
     
  9. jeepster93

    jeepster93 New Member

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    Pain...

    Pain is the bodies way of saying"STOP THAT", "DON"T DO THAT".

    I tend to listen to my body.
    I'm also 55 years old.
     
  10. Smiley

    Smiley New Member

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    Our coach just turned 60, and the entire cycling group is pretty hard core, but they all range in age from 30's to 60+. We only do Graeme's workouts on sundays, and then we also switch it up using Carmichaels workouts just for a change to or routine MW workouts. Our coach leads the rides.

    Last night we did an hour of just standing, let me tell you it was a welcome relief to the hamstrings. Also about 10 minutes warm up and cool down. Now I don't have sharp shooting pains-I know that is the pain that tells you to stop doing what you are doing. The muscle tiredness and sore feeling from putting pressure on the muscle, I thought was just from working out hard, and I have lactic acid build up which I need to get rid of. Correct?

    I know massage helps to get that out, and I do have one scheduled for tonight. Also the foam rollers help, which I did in ball class today.

    I do yoga stretches, and other stretcing for quads, hamstrings, glutes, inner thighs, hip flexors, lats and delts.

    Train naturally?!? Cannot do that here when it is 12F on a nice day with no wind. Winter riding is not for me, too much snow! So stuck indoors getting ready for our century ride in June.
     
  11. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    Smiley, I don't mean to come off a pure prick. I'm a good deal prick, but not 100% pure.

    Training naturally is not about where you train; it's about how. Indoor or outdoor, makes no difference. In fact, training indoors on a trainer or rollers and adding a bit of outdoor jogging or indoor pool swimming is always good. (aerobic wise) If you can't bring yourself to jog in the winter I have no further use for you. Go take up knitting. (Sorry, had to say it.)

    Lactic acid only exists the body through natural blood dialysis courtesy of your kidneys. Massage does not "pump" the lactic acid up and out of the legs as has been maintained for years. And even if it did, the chemical is still in your blood stream and has to wait its turn at the kidney blood factory. Those lads at the blood factory can only work so fast. What does not get processed right away gets recirculated back down and into the legs, arms and tallywhacker too. You can't rush Mother Nature. Massage just feels good and does promote better circulation which (in theory) helps cells regenerate faster. It does not remove lactic acid one little bit.

    I noticed you mention Carmichael. You'd be better off following Lances' chemistry teacher. One day you ride per guru X and another per guru Y. You do not do anything with consistency and work too hard on the few days you are gathered with the herd. This is the best way I know to hurt yourself. We tend to be competitive in a pack and some (maybe you) are not able to keep up but try anyway. Result? Very sore hamstrings. Nobody wants to appear the pansy while in the herd. It's natural to want to shine, even to our detriment.

    I tend to think (after reading your posts) that this thing you do with the variegated training routines and the misguided coach who doesn't seem to know his stuff or his athlete's needs, is just a fun social gathering centered around bikes. There is nothing wrong with this but do not expect a good result if racing or simply going faster on average is your goal. You will be lucky to escape without buggering something you need.

    As for stretching and yoga and such. I'm not a fan of any of that. Animals do not stretch before they lift out of their beds and run across the pasture. My dogs never stretch and have always outrun me. No animal on earth stretches before being physical. Not plow animals or race track horses and dogs. The race animals are made to warm up and that is all.

    Yoga is more for the mind. I'm not a touchy-feely sort. I attack problems, I don't ruminate about them. Action is what the world is about. Thinkers get eaten.

    Stretching routines are thought by many to exacerbate pre-existing muscle tears and connective tissue strains. This is especially true after hard exercise. The reason being your body has been infused with natural brain-centric pain killers and does not allow the body to register when pain should be listened to. Like after you've already done too much. You want to stretch after that? Not me. Not many other athletes either. As I said before, you can't sell a non-stretching routine book or DVD so this kind of thinking is not readily assimilated.

    Have fun on your group rides but anything they expect you to do that proves unusually painful the next day is to be avoided. I can't make it clear enough that to cause pain in training is wrong-headed. There is no glamor in telling of your fabulous workout that cripples you for several days. I do not understand this thinking. I think it simply shows the low-level of good coaching that exists today in endurance sports. This should not be the case but today everyone is out to sell something, some magic formula, and they are finding a ready market.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  12. Smiley

    Smiley New Member

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    Interesting points Ian. Since I don't like the pools (chlorine is horrid to my body) and jogging does cause sharp shooting pains to my knees, I guess I better learn to knit. :p

    I do need to get back on the elliptical as I did enjoy running at one time though. I do a core strengthening class which helps, and dance. Those fill up my time with the cross training. (you may think the dance is for pansies-but how we dance it is aerobic) :D

    The yoga I do really only involves the stretching as it has made me more flexible, ie-downward dog pose helps my hams and glutes and lats, and lower back. I don't have time to do the 'zen' like yoga for the mind, though I have done it in the past.

    So no other way to get out that lactic acid? I am probably buildig up muscles that I don't need to enlarge. Or WANT to. :eek:

    I tend to stay away from workouts that give me this much pain. So maybe I shall just lighten up the trainer (which I think it already is) and go easy for a while.

    I do disagre about your stretching, though you had good points. Stretching my tight muscles feels good for my body. Whatever works I suppose. Thanks for all the interesting points, I shall keep them all in mind everyone!
     
  13. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    Smiley, I happen to admire good dancers. They may be our best all-around athletes outside of decathlon participants. Problem is most dancer's knit too.

    Stair climbers, elliptical machines, XC ski simulators. All good if you can't run.

    As for stretching. Remember, earlier I told you not to follow every half-ass fitness guru. That includes me. If you are not hurting yourself for stretching, there's no reason not to do it. I just think it's a waste of my time. You don't have to feel the same way.

    Good luck and just be regular in your workouts. And do no harm.
     
  14. Smiley

    Smiley New Member

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    Ha! Knitting might be fun...maybe ;)

    I absolutely detest being sore, so I am going to back off intensity I guess. You would think after a month it would be a bit easier. Staying regular is very important! :D
     
  15. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    See, that's the thing. If you are having discomfort doing a program after a month the program is wrong. Be regular and mix in little bites of intense spinning or hill climbing. There is a simple formula used my marathon and 10,000 meter runners and it works for cyclists too. No more than 10% of your total mileage (or time running) at race pace. The rest is done at 80-85% effort. When you are fit, these fairly high percentages (85%) are actually easy. It's the 10% hard work at max effort that sharpens you.

    I tend to do a bit less than 10%. 5% hard work is something you can do all year long and never suffer burnout. That is primarily where I stay. If I'm riding 2 hours one day I'll throw in 6-10 minutes of hard sprints or hill climb pieces. (12 minutes = 10% of 2 hours) These are usually done in 30 second to 2 minute bites. This is all you need. Base work is the most important thing. Approaching a particular race I want to do well in I might go up to 10% several weeks beforehand. This works and it does not involve a whole bunch of thinking. Ride your normal distances and sprinkle in some speed work not to exceed 10% mileage or distance. The simple designs are the best.
     
  16. Smiley

    Smiley New Member

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    Well I shall back off tonight, as I need to get my muscles moving so I can dance after. Thanks for all the tips!
     
  17. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    Dance with a woman or dance like a fruitcake?
     
  18. Smiley

    Smiley New Member

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    Never like a fruitcake! I leave that to the boys:D
     
  19. chh55

    chh55 Drink plenty of water!!!

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    Ian...Cats stretch!
    I always follow the instructor guided stretch routine after a spinning pass. From a layman's point of view I feel that stretching, when done in moderation, reduces the chance of cramping in the middle of the night after a tough pass. Also increases mobility and flexibility and decreases the level of lactic acid in the muscles. Very important not to "bounce" into extreme extension, but that's common knowledge.
     
  20. Nigal

    Nigal YAY BAIKS! Tavern Member

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    I have some trouble with my legs and I find biking builds up my quads so I have to strengthen my hamstrings and the muscles in the backs of my legs. Yoga is awesome for this because of all the forward bending I do. I can really tell a difference.