Scandium and Titanium

Discussion in 'Mountain Biking' started by jpmike6656, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. jpmike6656

    jpmike6656 New Member

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    Hi guys and gals, I don't know anything about using scandium for mtb frames but see them for sale. I've been looking at Lynskeys and the titanium frames they build, drool! I'm interested in building a 29er. I see 29er scandium frames for about 1/2 the price of a titanium frame from Lynskeys. I imagine the price diff. is that Lynskeys frames are hand made in the US (huge plus) and the other frames from are robotically built in China (big minus). I guess my question is how is scandium diff. as a frame material from crmo steel/titanium/carbon/aluminum? Any opinion/help is appreciated.
    Merry Christmas to all of you.
    Mike
     
  2. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    Seems like you've got a bit of misinformation. You could pay a premium for a frame made in the US, but that doesn't necessarily mean you get a better bike. And many people fail to make the distinction between China and Taiwan.

    Given a choice, would you prefer a frame that's hand made by someone who only builds maybe a couple dozen bikes a year, or someone that welds up several bikes a day? I'm just trying to point out that country of origin does not always dictate quality.

    As far as comparing materials, that would take forever to point out the differences. But here's a short primer on Scandium, which is an element added to aluminum alloys.
     

  3. funetical

    funetical Slowin it up.

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    Which is better Scandium or Titanium?
     
  4. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    Do not judge frames by where they are built. This is often a big mistake and tends to cast a negative light on the person making the judgment. People in China are no better or worse than those in the USA or the UK.

    As for the metals. Both can make a good frame. I have no long-term experience with scandium but ride a titanium MTB and think it's great. Very stiff and fairly light. My bike is not shocked or suspended. If you are familiar with alloy as a frame material, I'd say titanium is very similar in feel to me. I like alloy too but have heard of major frame failures with this material. I have never seen an alloy failure on a production bike however.

    I just saw a picture of a carbon fibre mountain bike posted in recumbents by JohnnyMagic you should find. Have never seen a better looking MTB. And being of CF it has to be pretty stiff yet soft of feel. Go find that photo. Expect to fall out of love with metal. I have.
     
  5. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    Neither.


    Ian, you can call it aluminium. Technically, all metals are alloys, since they are composed of more than one element.
     
  6. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    Carbon fiber iso-truss wins, hands down.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    It's the spelling that gives me the dry heaves. I always get it wrong. Alloy I can handle.
     
  8. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    I worked for a transport company in Australia, and we shipped aluminium all day long. Drove me nuts.
     
  9. IanHighfield

    IanHighfield New Member

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    Where did the CF truss frame come from, Indy Hack?

    Looks like you could twist it into junk. But it must be much stronger than it appears.
     
  10. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    Some info. Real world results.
     
  11. Mootsguy

    Mootsguy A Red Headed Stepchild

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    I humbly would disagree, in my opinion Titanium is a superior frame material. Course I own four of the silly things ---:D
     
  12. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    Do much downhill racing? :rolleyes:
     
  13. Mootsguy

    Mootsguy A Red Headed Stepchild

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    Not my cup-o-tea, I prefer to earn the rewards... I have however seen more than one Scandium frame snap at the headtube and only one Ti bike which cracked at the weld and not in the material itself.

    Different strokes I understand, but spend 6-8 hour cross country on a Ti frame and a Scandium frame and then see which one you buy -- :thumbsup:
     
  14. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    I'm not advocating one over the other. Different materials for different applications. You've pointed out one of the downfalls inherent in titanium though - it's difficult to manipulate. No doubt if titanium fails, it will be at a welded junction.

    The Arantix frame seems to combine the best of everything, and has held up to abuse it was never intended to see. But I'm also waiting to find out more about the new stainless that has been offered recently.
     
  15. Mootsguy

    Mootsguy A Red Headed Stepchild

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    Rather than a inherent problem in the material wouldn't you say that was the fault of the frame maker? Which makes it important to know where your frames are coming from.

    I was at Demo Days and didn't the Arantix road bikes suffer with cracks at the headtubes? I'm not sure if I recall correctly but I believe it was 08.
     
  16. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    My titanium tandem MTB held up to some scary abuse, but my point was that you pay a premium for a material that's plentiful, yet difficult to work with. I wouldn't doubt if even Lynskey and Moots have had failures.

    I'm not aware of any issues with Arantix, but anything is possible.
     
  17. Engyo

    Engyo Bent Newbie - old rider

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    I'm waiting for the Unobtanium frames.
     
  18. Industry_Hack

    Industry_Hack Total noob (& forum admin) Admin Staff Tavern Member

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    They've been available for years. Pricing is still an issue. They came out shortly after the drillium phase.
     
  19. Mootsguy

    Mootsguy A Red Headed Stepchild

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    Scandium is an aluminium alloy which is lighter and stiffer than normal aluminium. You can make thinner frame tubing with same strength as normal aluminium. Therefore it is lighter... feel is the same as aluminium. Do note scandium is noticably weaker in impact strength due to thinner walls..they are more "tin-can" than aluminum...so to speak.

    Regarding unobtanium, rumor has it that Gary Helfrich still has two available in his studio...;)

    ETA some additional information on the differences between Ti and Scandium: Scandium has a fatigue life, titanium doesn't (well, it does, but very small compared to aluminum/scandium)

    Scandium oxidizes, ti doesn't.

    Scandium, like aluminum frames, is typically built with larger diameter, thinner walled tubing, that is more prone to denting than smaller diameter, thicker walled titanium.

    Titanium can be repaired without requiring heat treating, Scandium can't.

    Hope that helps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2009
  20. funetical

    funetical Slowin it up.

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    IF you guys posted links to articles about the mistery metals I would appreciate it. Saves me from having to Google so much.