great thread...I'm new so pardon for stupid questions...I'm looking for a ti frame. I can take a stock frame (interesting discussion on that, above. I have a herniated L5, had 2 steel custom frames, still have 1). I just can't believe the cost. I've spoke to two builders mentioned above (very good people) and they want around 3400 for frame and fork. One of the builders has "stock" frames but they're the same price as custom. There's "Pride Titanium" US built for much less. But no one knows them. All I want is a road bike (56TT), 130 rear axle, steel fork, touring brazons, very stiff bottom bracket (I'm fat), stiff frame, possibly slight sloping top tube (I'm flexible), not even committed to butted vs. straight gauge (I know the issues, I just don't know how much it matters for this bike). I'm looking for that holy grail...the all purpose bike that I can tour with every couple of years, use for commuting in a wet climate, will never show wear, and yet is light enough to go fast and inspire me to lose my own weight (the wheel issue is funny. I've found that you can tour with quite a bit of weight on 700/25, 36 spoke, regular Mavic open pro rims, so I'm never sure about the focus on "tire clearance" for this kind of bike). Is it really going to cost 3400 for frame & fork? I've been thinking of this bike for 4 years and missed the titanium price rise a couple of years ago. My wife's 14 year old Appalachian she got complete (built up) for 1200, looks like new (sort of) and seems perfect (sort of).