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Two skinny J's
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No...we don't like winners that aren't doppers. He had to dope to be that good, right?
 

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"I have never doped, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one. That USADA ignores this fundamental distinction and charges me instead of the admitted dopers says far more about USADA, its lack of fairness and this vendetta than it does about my guilt or innocence. Any fair consideration of these allegations has and will continue to vindicate me."

The above qoute from the ESPN article says it all. These charges and allegations have nothing to do with doping at all.
 

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I believe he doped but who knows?

Lots of people know but whose talking?

At least ten witnesses are talking.

Will Lance contest the charges and get his day in court?

Hmm, I don't see anything about that in his quote.

"...Armstrong has 10 days to respond to the charges..."
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

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Regardless of what people think of the man, he was a great competitor and innovator. He brought a lot of good attention to cycling and to cancer research. This was a dick move...
 

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Here's let's kick this to a CS&M arena. . .

Its a quasi-government organization, right?

So federal funding supports them, which is drying up.

You need to justify your funding with the work you do so, let's go fry a big fish, yes? It garners attention for the organization and the "work" it is doing.

I've read various postulations on Armstrong, I find the most plausible to be that he had lost a lot of weight due to cancer yet had kept his power output from when he was heavier. Its simple math, less weight but same power output=greater power:weight ratio.

Look at his accusers, I believe all of them have been jammed up for doping? Maybe they are trying to save face by accusing someone else? Even if they are innocent?
 

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I just would like to know if he did dope, why could they never catch him over so many races and championships??? It tells me they should be immediately removed from their position of work and their pay should be provided to someone that can catch the ones that are cheating. What does it say about the people actually running they organization? Wasted money on a witch hunt... You come after him when he has been out of the sport for 2 years. What can you actually do to him? NOTHING!!! Take his medals & give them to the 2nd place person. Does anyone remember who came in 2nd all those years. Yes on some roster you can find the data. We only remember winners. I cannot say if he did or not, I was not at all those races. I can say he will either live with the guilt of doing something he should not have done to try to earn greatness or be affirmed by his innocents and he alone will understand why people will try to begrudge his greatness. IMO
 

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Deranged Touring Cyclist
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Drug traffickers sometimes go to jail.
That is true. One can be jailed for trafficking drugs, but only after being tried, convicted and sentenced to jail by a court of law, not one of arbitration. Last I heard, the gov't dropped its investigation for lack of evidence.

Fortunately for the witch-hunt, the USADA's doesn't need a court of law, they have an arbitration process. One apparently untainted by Constitutional silliness like the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty, or the quaint concept of a statute of limitations.

I am curious who the USADA will set its sights on, next. The LA case will, no-doubt, keep the taxpayer dollars rolling in...for now. When the next infusion of cash is needed, though, I wonder which high-profile star will be next to be dragged out of retirement and through the mud based on charges that are, years after the fact, virtually impossible to refute.

This has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with funding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Oh. The criminal is the victim and the enforcement agency is the villain. Got it! ;)
Think he meant the taxpayers are the victim! The recipients of taxpayers money are the villians. Lance is just the pawn between the 2
 

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Deranged Touring Cyclist
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I think he actually believes Lance didn't play an important role in a program of systematic doping.
First he's a doper, now it's a conspiracy to supply dope to others. What's next? Charges he gave dope to children? This is silly.

I don't know if he did it or not, and believe the question is no longer germane to the argument - my whole point is that the regulators dropped the ball by failing to nail him while he was racing. By coming after him after he retired, after the Feds dropped their criminal investigation, the regulators have shot their own credibility in the foot.

If they needed a different test to detect a new type of doping, as has been suggested before, it was incumbent on the regulators to develop it in time to matter. Using a new test on years-old blood samples just lacks credibility in my book. How can the accused refute the result? It's not like the test can be re-done with a new sample of the original blood.

The same goes for the whole 'grand conspiracy' thing. These are great for prosecutors and fiction writers. It's otherwise not a credible charge without quite a lot of evidence to back it up. Even if true, I still maintain they needed to catch him at it while he was competing in order for it to mean anything.

Ultimately, it's clear we're not going to agree on this. I think the whole thing lacks credibility and should be flushed. If I understand your position correctly, you feel the doping allegation is true and therefore justifies everything done to further it.

I've never been much on sports, but was developing an interest in pro cycling until this mess. Emphasis on 'was'. If any regulator can re-write pretty much any part of cycle-racing history at any time, I cannot see any point at all in following it. Race results mean nothing if they can be re-written a decade or more after the race. Who will be taken down next, and how old will the 'evidence' against him or her be?
 

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...If they needed a different test to detect a new type of doping, as has been suggested before, it was incumbent on the regulators to develop it in time to matter...
That would be fine if the goal is the reward the best cheater and well, I guess that's sort of what happened. Cheaters have been known to take steps to avoid detection of their illicit behavior, for obvious reasons.
 

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...The same goes for the whole 'grand conspiracy' thing. These are great for prosecutors and fiction writers. It's otherwise not a credible charge without quite a lot of evidence to back it up....
The Director Sportif, team doctors and trainers have all been charged...
 

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Deranged Touring Cyclist
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How do you test for blood doping which is adding YOUR OWN BLOOD. How do you test for the presence of human blood in a body? How about testosterone? Lance failed a test for cortisone at the TdF prologue and eight samples from 1999 show the presence of EPO.

If I shot someone in front of TEN witnesses, would the testimony of the witnesses be sufficient to hang me or would you need to prove I did it with a blood test?

USADA has a very strong case OR YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE LANCE WOULD BE CONTESTING IT. He has a lot of money and a lot of lawyers.

http://www.twospoke.com/forum/f117/leave-him-alone-already-9119/index3.html#post82848
I used the term 'doping' as a catch-all for any type of illicit performance enhancement - no doubt your definition is technically correct.

Beyond that, our views are clearly divergent. I don't buy the charges and don't see the excessive delay between the alleged infraction and charges as appropriate or justified. I feel the action is driven by the USADA's need to justify the taxpayer dollars it gets rather than any desire to 'clean up' professional cycling or catch cheaters. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

You point out varous test results, and that if the charges weren't legit, LA would still be fighting them. I remain unconvinced that it's even possible to fight charges in a 'court' of arbitration using rules set by the very agency bringing the charges. How does one argue or prove innocence against results from a test performed on blood that's been in storage for more than a decade, using tests that didn't exist when the sample was taken?

The USADA has stacked the arbitration deck in its favor. It should be no surprise that its charges tend to succeed as a result, but that doesn't mean the charges are true - just that the organization has done a great job of manipulating the its rules to guarantee success when it goes after someone.

That said, you clearly put more stock in the agency, its charges and mission than I ever will. I've smelled a rat in this mess from the very beginning, and the stench has only grown stronger with time.

So be it. I respect your right to your views, but am disinclined to further discussion as, IMHO, neither of us is going to change the other's mind and the arguments have become circular.

I look forward to seeing the full and unvarnished truth of this matter come out at some point - whatever that truth may be.
 
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